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Message |
Randy Davis
Member
Username: Randy_davis
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 12:36 pm: | 
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I was curious if anybody who has had a transplant has used alkaline water. I have heard of people have great results with alkaline water but I don't anybody that has used it that is a transplant patient. I have some fears about it possibly making my immune system stronger which would not be good with the meds we have to take and also interfering with the way our medication absorbs into our system. The alkaline water systems are expensive and I don't want to get something that isn't good for me. Thanks for sharing any experiences you have had with this.
Thanks, Randy
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Richard Owens
Member
Username: Richardindy
Post Number: 579
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 03:44 pm: |
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Sorry, Randy, but I've never heard of "alkaline water." What is it and what is its purpose? What transplanted organ is involved?
Richard
Kidney Transplant - Aug 30, 1986 - Type One Diabetes
Liver Transplant - May 15, 2007 - Hepatic Carcinoma due to Hepatitis C |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 170
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 04:44 pm: |
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take a look at this, Randy
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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Karen R.
Forum Leader
Username: Relivkaren
Post Number: 3603
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 09:37 pm: |
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Randy:
Welcome to Transplant Buddies! I am glad that you found us. What kind of transplant did you have? I don't know what alkaline water is unless you are talking about reverse osmosis.
I hope you continue to visit. Please tell us more about yourself. We look forward to getting to know you.
God Bless!
Karen
Dx: BOOP - May 2006. Rediagnosed with Bronchiolitis Obliterans Nov. 2006
Listed Feb 2008 - Waiting on double lung transplant at Cleveland Clinic
Ohio, USA
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. |
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Jewel
Member
Username: Jewel
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 08:16 pm: |
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This is a spammer! edited by Rise' |
holistic health advisor
Member
Username: Holistichealth
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 06:54 pm: |
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Randy,
As you know, the kidneys remove wastes and extra water from the blood to form urine. Our blood plasma is 95% water and so it is imperative that everyone drink the 'best of the best' water for their good health.
Alkaline, ion, restructured water (known as Kangen Water by the Japanese - 8.5 pH, 9.0 pH, 9.5 pH) is micro-clustered as well as being very easy for the body to absorb (easy to drink). Kangen Water is able to super-hydrate cells, tissues and organs.
You don't have to worry about your meds because with Enagic's technology, you can produce 7.0 pH water (clean water that is free from toxins and not micro-clustered) that will not effect the meds that you are taking.
I would like to invite you to plug into Dr. Carpenter's "Health & Wellness" Call on Thursday @ 6 pm/PST - 1.512.879.2059 pin 388905 # where you can learn more about Kangen Water as well as hear testimonials from different people across the USA.
The reason that I am contacting you is because on one of his recent calls, there was a woman whose kidney transplant was failing and after drinking Kangen Water, her PSA count went back to being normal.
You can also contact Dr. Carpenter and submit a question to him at: www.mykangenpower.com/wellness.
If you would like additional information including an ebook, research studies, doctors information - please contact me at holistichealthadvisor@yahoo.com} |
eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 211
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 07:35 pm: |
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This sounds suspiciously like the patent medicines of the 19th century. (I think Coca-Cola fell into that same category when it first came out). Water is water (assuming clean) and there is no evidence that ionized water does anything other than get absorbed as it normally would. Water molecules are stable as H.-2-O. Any other ions would be other chemicals.. Like table salt. Added to water the sodium and chloride separate into sodium ions and chlorine ions and are stable as ions when dissolved in water. If you evaporate the water the sodium and chlorine reattach back to table salt.
If you ionize water electrically, you are merely separating the hydrogen and the oxygen atoms (breaking the water molecule into separate atoms 1 hydrogen gas atom and 2 oxygen gas atoms) which quickly bubble out into the atmosphere.
This sounds a whole lot like a great scheme to separate people from the dollar bills !
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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Bob2006
Member
Username: Delgador
Post Number: 141
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 10:41 pm: |
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Eric,
What you are describing is Money-Ionization is a process used to separate you from your money.....and it seem to evaporate into thin air. (Just kidding).
We have a water softener, the water is great, removes most of the chlorine,...etc... and my wife likes it because it leaves her hair nice and soft. It's almost as good as NYC (Manhattan) water.
Bob |
donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 78
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 11:30 pm: |
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Holistichealth, I for one want to thank you for trying to explain how important the quality of whatever we put in our mouths has a direct effect on our health, even the water we drink.
I have been taking the approach of trying to keep my body in an alkaline state years before my transplant. I am coming up on two years post transplant and the results have been rewarding. In fact, other than my kidney problem I have not been sick one day in the last 5 years. No colds,flu's, nothing, not even a headache.
By becoming more alkaline, more oxygen is available to be used at the cellular level where the root of most sicknesses occur. And I'm sure you are aware that cancer cannot survive in an alkaline environment.
I will be tuning into Dr. Carpenter's call on Thursday. Thanks again for your expertise on this matter.
And Randy, this is what works for me. I try to keep my immune system as strong as possible, even with the meds I take. My neph approves of what I am doing and has dropped the levels of prograf and cellcept I take. I accomplish this by eating a plant based diet which helps me stay hydrated and alkalized. Good luck Randy. You are what you eat.
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 212
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 08:26 am: |
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Im not going to have an argument about this. You cannot control the ph of your biody.. that's what the organs inside you do., Drinking alkaline water has health benefits .. because you want it to !! No other reason.
Rolaids, tums all those things are alkalines.. eat them.. has the same effect.. In fact, more of an effect since they are actually chemicals.. (Calcium carbonate etc) Mix it water and THEN you have alkaline water.
But other than cure some indigestion - there is no miracle occurring
From one of the Kangen sites:
.US FDA Disclaimer
The products and the claims made about specific products on or through this site have not been evaluated by the United States Food and Drug Administration and are not approved to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent disease.
Get good book on how the body works ..chemically.. Read it ! .
and as Ol Bob said.. see if this doesn't sound like Money separation rather than gas separation
Oh and i am NOT against natural healing or other processes. Aspirin, quinine, prograf, cyclosporin, pennicillian.. In fact, most of the long lasting treatments we use today are based on folk medicine,. Homeopathics etc.
But, you want to spend your money on ionized (ie no such thing) water ? I have some prime real estate in Florida u might be interested in
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 79
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 01:19 pm: |
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Eric, I'm so glad we're not going to have an argument about this, because arguing won't get us the truth we are seeking through reason. I know you'll agree we can have a robust discussion about this subject.
You're right, the organs inside you help control the ph of your body. So how do the organs do this? They can't do this on their own. That's where we come in making the choices of what we put in our mouths to enable the organs to do their job.
If drinking alkaline water has health benefits only because you want it to, then am I to understand that I can eat just about anything and get health benefits because I want it to.... No other reason? That would be great! But I know it doesn't work that way.
Trying to use reason, I might conclude that since my organs control my ph, and what I put in my mouth eventually gets to my organs, I might finally conclude that I have alot of control over the ph of my body.
About Rolaids and tums, yep, they are alkaline and neutralize the acid in your stomach. This is why they "work. " When one has indigestion, heartburn, etc., it is a result of poor digestion in the stomach. It takes an acidic stomach to properly digest food and when rolaids are eaten and because they are alkaline, they neutralize the acid in the stomach, but the stomach must be acidic to have digestion. Immediately the stomach demands acid and a fresh batch of acid rushes into the stomach breaking down food alleviating the discomfort. Here is the problem. This new batch of acid has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the blood, bones, tissues and yes...organs. Peter has been robbed to pay Paul and precious calcium is especially robbed. Why do you think these antacid products boast having calcium added?
As for all these antacids, I say absolutely " do not eat them." This is just putting a bandaid on a spreading wound. Get at the source of the digestion problem by eating better providing your stomach with a healthy digestive environment.
Let's discuss the FDA. Do you know the FDA passed a law that only a man made drug can treat, cure or prevent disease. If any product tries to make this claim, they are breaking the law and the people making this claim are subject to arrest and many have been. Why do you think the FDA tried to classify obesity as a disease? So they could try to control the cure. Every so often the FDA tries to take control of the vitamin and supplement industry, trying to make them only available via doctor prescription.
The important words on the disclaimer are " have not been evaluated by the USFDA, " and they never will. Can you imagine what it would mean if the FDA did studies that showed vitamins and supplements can treat diseases? This would crush the medical industry and big pharma. If the FDA ever gains control of these, there will extensive studies of these to show what many of us already know, they work. MSG and aspartame are two substances approved by the FDA. I personally do not think the FDA works in the best interest of the public in many cases.
If you can recommend a good book on how the body works chemically, I would greatly appreciate it.
If you want to swallow what the FDA says and you think you have no control on the ph of your body, I have some great real estate on the moon for sale.
Eat well, your ph depends on it.
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 219
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 03:01 pm: |
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I am not saying that we don't need vitamins, minerals, and electrolytes to function, of course we do. What I am suggesting is that there is no such thing as ionized water in the way they describe.
You can get the basics from any 10th grade biology book and the rest from a college text on anatomy and physiology, from the ADT ATP cycle on.
First, PURE water will not conduct electricity. Only water that has been ionized (by adding a salt (not just table salt, any chemical that is designated a salt) will conduct electricity. When it this happens, the oxygen and hydrogen are broken apart (from the H20) and released as gases into the atmosphere. They do not stay in the liquid and they are stable gases (H2 and O2) not ions. So, it's not just the electricity ionizing the water, it's the ions added to the water that allow electricity to flow to separate the oxygen and hydrogen out of it.
So, where's the benefit of spending 100s or 1000's of dollars on a device that can be built for less than 10 dollars, uses pure water and table salt (or potassium salt, or magnesium salt or any other metallic salt that ionizes in water and lets electricity flow) and does the same thing ??
If this device is so miraculous then please describe exactly what it does and how in a fashion similar to what I have done above..
Otherwise, I suggest not peddling on the site as that is dissallowed.
(reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
or any high school or college (non-organic) chemistry text)}
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 220
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 03:14 pm: |
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Lest I forget - since salt was added to the water to allow it to conduct electricity, I'm guessing that's the real benefit (if any) of drinking the end product - not the electrolysis.
This has so many earmarks of snake-oil it's hard to begin to list them all ! These products prey on the unwitting, who are unable or unwilling to do the research or ask the questions. They reach out to those so desperate for a cure or a respite from their disease that they would do anything..and there's always some unscrupulous sole who will gladly take their money knowing there's no benefit.
There's a sucker born every minute ! That's why things like the nigerian money scam are still going around,,.and people are still being suckered in !!
You show me the facts.. explain the science. using the scientific method and I'll retract what I said and jump on the bandwagon.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 223
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 11:08 pm: |
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I was just rereading the above.. women don't get PSA tests.. kidney transplant or not. it's a Prostate Specific Antigen..doesn't quite fit the profile of being a woman.
I guess I'm really happy for that woman who drank the water and got her PSA back to normal.. uh , would that be 0 ??
SO it seems.. spreading more medical jargon to confuse the reader and prove that their stuff does great things.. even on non-existing parts in women.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 02:38 pm: |
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This may be a little lengthy, but it will be informative.
The main paradigm I am discussing is the role ph plays into our health and how we are in control of our ph and thus in control of our health.
The thought behind ionized water is interesting. Does it work as intended? I don't know. If it can raise the ph, so much the better. Obviously some have received value from the product and who am I to judge their benefit.
I am going to explain why your ph is so important to your health, how you can test it and how you can take control of your ph. I will show facts and explain the science behind them.
The ph scale is a measure of acidity vs alkalinity with a reading of 7.0 being neutral. Anything above 7 is considered alkaline while a reading below 7 is considered acidic. Alkaline readings indicate a higher level of oxygen while acidic readings indicate low levels of oxygen.
Dr.Otto Warburg won a Nobile Prize for proving cancer cannot survive in an oxygen rich environment ( alkaline ) and it thrives in a low oxygen medium ( acidic ). This is also important to maintain good overall health. Ever wondered why we don't get cancer of the heart? The oxygen levels are too high in that area to let cancer take hold.
Our blood must maintain a ph level between 7.35 and 7.45. Deviate from these levels and death occurs. That's why I explained why not to take rolaids and other products like it because the blood will be robbed of some of it's nutrients like calcium and since the bloods ph must remain within a certain range, the blood will get calcium from any source like the bones. Osteoperosis anyone?
Oh, I have read parts of a "good" book on how the body works chemically. It's called Anatomy and Physiology by Anthony and Thibodeau, 10th edition. On page 496 it states " enzymes function optimally at a specific ph and become inactive if this deviates beyond narrow limits." It goes on to state " enzymes are vital substances. Without them, the chemical reactions necessary for life could not take place ". This is why I have suggested to eat raw foods up to about 40-50% of your total food intake. These raw foods provide live enzymes to your digestive tract. One can eat healthy food but if your digestive tract does not have the proper enzymes and ph, you're body will not assimilate the nutrients available. All of us are on drugs which makes this process more important to keep us as healthy as possible.
I read many on these sites talking about everything in moderation. I do not believe in that paradigm. There are many foods and substances I try to avoid altogether. This profession about everything in moderation to me is just as excuse for bad choices resulting in undesirable results. I cannot justify this with my reasoning mind. I eat things on occasion that are not healthy and without guilt, but I don't do it in moderation.
Testing one's ph is very simple and it is an reflection of a person's overall health. Some call it the 12 second test and the most important test on earth. Test your saliva with ph strips. I was turning more acidic the further along my kidney disease progressed. I really focussed on alkaline foods and slowed down the disease progress. The doctors said my kidneys would fail by a certain time and either I would need a transplant or go on dialysis. I actually delayed the inevitable for years making me wonder what would have happened if I would have changed my lifestyle years earlier. Would this disease have ever surfaced.?
As for peddling, we all peddle constantly. I am peddling good health through good nutrition for your mind and body with your mind being first in line.
It is your choice if your body is going to have more acid or alkaline in it. Drinking and eating alkaline foods and beverages has health benefits because I want it to ? It's because it does.
You can control your ph.
To Eric, I really hope you take a serious look at this ph subject. I have always enjoyed reading your posts and I have taken to heart your thoughts. You have made me think and question some beliefs I have, making me more aware. Thank you for that.
I wish you good health and happiness. If you knew me, you'd know I mean it. donnie
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 225
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 03:29 pm: |
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Long answer but you didn't answer the question: explain the science/physics/chemistry behind ionizing water.
I said this above: there is no argument that we are what we eat, we need all the 'stuff' found in food sources.
None of that is germane to the question: what is the science behind kangen or ionized water.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 09:55 pm: |
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I have never studied ionized water so I can't offer an opinion on the subject. If and when ionized water interests me, I will research it and pass it on.
I would suggest if you want to know the science behind ionized water, find someone who is considered an expert on the subject. Maybe try Dr. Carpenter's call as was mentioned above. If it is like other conference calls I have been on, you can ask him questions yourself. I'd be willing to bet he'll have some answers for you.
Sometimes we are not seeing the forest through the trees. The important message through all this is to alkalize your body chemistry through nutrition to avoid and treat illness. If ionized water is not for you that's ok. It must work for others to give their testimonials, and I know those can be fraudulent. That's why we research if interested to find out for ourselves. It's our choice.
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 227
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
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You aren't promoting the water, but you are promoting that we can change the pH of our bodies. And you are measuring the pH of saliva to make this determination. I'm pretty sure that that is an invalid measurement. Saliva's purpose is to start the digestive process and it's pH can vary widely depending on what we eat, drink, or possibly even burp up.
Don't suggest testing urine, its job is to remove the excess minerals and salts (or other wastes) in our system to help force the pH into its normal range , the pH of urine can vary widely as well. (depends on the concentration of uric acid and urea) but its usually acidic.
I suggest that any amount of eating or drinking will not change the ph of the blood beyond the normal livable range..and that's pretty narrow.
You are right, Cancer won't survive in a system where the pH is too high or too low. But the experiments are done in vitro.. in glass.. petri dishes and test tubes, not in vivo.. or within the human body. If cancer cells won't survive neither will normal cells.
So, I recommend that you measure the pH of blood. See where that takes you. You are trying to change the pH of the bodyy's internal environment.. that would be blood.. not saliva or urine! If it's outside the range of 7.35 to 7,45.. one would have serious issues... none the least of which is death.
by the way, pH measures Hydrogen.. the more hydrogen ions, the lower the pH, the more acidic the substance is. The less hydrogen, the higher the pH, the more alkaline oxygen has nothing to do with it. Breathing does..and that has to do with Carbon Dioxide. CO2 in solution produces a weak acid (Carbonic). Hyperventilating releases too much carbon dioxide and the blood can become more alkaline.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 228
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 12:39 am: |
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Since I had to work tonight anyway, i did a little surfing about all of this.
Check out this site: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
He explains the real chemistry and the pseudo-chemistry of Kangen water (which, by the way, is a multilevel marketing scheme).
I would venture that what he says about alkaline/acidic waters applies equally to alkaline/acidic foods.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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Hostess Rise'
Forum Leader
Username: Risa
Post Number: 11472
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 06:13 am: |
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I am moving this post to the nutrition section.
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Hostess Rise'
Forum Leader
Username: Risa
Post Number: 11500
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 09:34 am: |
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This post has been moved to the top.
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 229
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:38 pm: |
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do we have 'non-nutrition' section ??
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 82
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 05:47 pm: |
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I am promoting that we can control the ph of our body without promoting the water you are referring to. I have been clear on this. I am also promoting testing your ph via saliva. To do this, first thing in the morning rinse the mouth out with water. Wait a moment and test that first saliva. Of course you wouldn't test your saliva after eating or drinking something. That would be ridiculous.
Saliva tests will show a trend of ph levels. Once a week is more than sufficient. I have been saliva testing for at least 10 years and these results have directly reflected my good to poor to good health. The closer I came to kidney failure the lower my ph became. It now sits consistently above 7.0. I have tested several cancer patients in our area and all without exception have or had an acidic ph. I have tested many of my friends who were "healthy" to find some of them with an acidic reading. I suggested they all go get some blood work done and a physical. One friend was on the verge of becoming a diabetic. We changed his diet and that condition disappeared and his ph readings went up. Others had blood pressure and cholesterol issues. Most of them went on drugs and a few changed their diets. The ones that dieted slowly dropped their bp and cholesterol and guess what, their ph levels rose. Some of those who started on drugs are now off, eating well and their ph levels rose also. Others on drugs didn't want to change their diet and are still on drugs.
Your statement about eating and drinking having little change on the bloods ph is true and misleading. The blood will fight and draw from any source it can in the body to maintain it's ph. That process will rob oxygen and other nutrients from sources that need them. When this happens over a sustained period of time, sickness is inevitable. The affected tissues, organs and bones will not be nourished or oxygenated and will become diseased and the ph of these will become acidic. If proper nutrition is fed to the body, the blood may rob as usual but this time the affected have plenty to give and will keep giving and stay healthy. Food and drink have everything to do with the blood's ph. It's seeing the forest through the trees. I hope this explains the relationship between the blood's ph and the rest of the body's ph. Blood cannot do this on it's own.
To say oxygen has nothing to do with ph measurement is true and misleading. Yes, the less H the higher the ph, the more alkaline. In the absence of hydrogen with more alkalinity, you end up with higher levels of oxygen so O has alot to do with alkalinity. They could have labeled the test po instead of ph and measured the O levels. Acidity represents a high hydrogen count and a low oxygen level, does it not? Alkalinity represents a high oxygen count and a low hydrogen level, does it not?
I have looked over the site you recommended and I will post some thoughts next time.
Eat well, you're blood depends on it.
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 230
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 11:31 am: |
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So far, you have provided your theories and anecdotes. You have not shown that you can control the pH of the body. You also have some bad science up there. (it's called pH, not pO. Oxygen in exchanged in the lungs and carried on hemoglobin and has no effect on pH at all). Changing the pH of the body would require changing things starting in the digestive tract. Stomach acid has a pH of between 1 and 3. Eating won't change that in any permanent way.
I have asked for numbers, science, proof. you provided your observations in an uncontrolled, unrepeatable set of suppositions. Proof is a collection of data from double blind study with control groups. You have confused a coincidental/collateral, anecdotal observation with scientific cause and effect. If the body is ill then measurements will be abnormal. Eating right is but one part of getting or keeping healthy. The pH is a result of illness not a result of eating.
This is like the hypothetical story of a school where they noticed that all the kids with blue pencils did great on tests. So they called some of their friends and they seemed to think that kids with blue pencils did great on tests too.
So, what did they do.. They went out and replaced all the yellow pencils with blue pencils. The scores didn't change They never asked where the kids got the blue pencils. The original kids with blue pencils were all members of Mensa - and the pencils were presents for the members. The kids were smart..not the pencils. Their original conclusion was coincidental. And obviously erroneous.
By the way: "If drinking alkaline water has health benefits only because you want it to, then am I to understand that I can eat just about anything and get health benefits because I want it to.... No other reason? That would be great! But I know it doesn't work that way. "
it does work that way. It's called the placebo effect. It is well documented and occurs often. The benefits are attributed to a better, positive outlook and that does have a curative effect.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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donnie
Member
Username: Donnie
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 01:46 pm: |
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"If it's edible, it's lunch."
"As long as it's food I don't really care."
"You are what you eat."
These are statements from your blogs. I would interpret these as you just eat whatever and knowing you are what you eat.....you really don't care what you are. Is this true?
"Changing the ph of the body would require changing things starting in the digestive tract."
"Saliva's purpose is to start the digestive process and it's ph can vary widely depending on what we eat, drink or burp up."
Both of these statements are true and you are helping me prove my point. By eating foods that alkalize the start and continue through the digestive system, we can further alkalize systems in our body like the blood to keep them healthy. And yes, it all starts with what we put in our mouths.
"The ph is a result of illness not a result of eating."
Based on your own statements above, this one doesn't seem consistent. If eating can have an influence at the start of the digestive process and that processes ph is dependent upon that food then obviously the ph is a result from eating and subsequent illness can be a result of a ph shift caused by the food we consume. In other words, we first eat, then we get a ph shift and then we get sick. It looks to me " the ph is a result of eating." Can you please tell me where this line of reasoning is not right?
Your hypothetical story ends with their original conclusion was coincidental. Is it a coincidence that people who eat a more healthy diet are overwhelmingly more healthy and their ph levels in all systems of their bodies are where they are required to be, properly acidic in the stomach and strongly alkaline in other areas?
This all can't just be because they want it to. I am fully aware of the placebo effect. If the placebo effect was all that was required to become healthy, we all could just eat what ever we desired believing we would receive healthy benefits, but you and I know " it doesn't work that way." I can guarantee if a person eats poorly over a lengthy period of time, even if they have the best attitude going, their immune system will eventually breakdown and they will become ill.
As for scientific cause and effect, I offer the textbook mentioned above. It is one offered by the universities of this country in pre med studies. Also, Dr. Warburg's winning of not one but two nobel prizes for his work on the relationship between cancer, oxygen and ph. Look at the research work of Robert Barefoot and the relationship between cancer patients and their ph. Watch the movie from the website foodmatters.tv. There are too many coincidences from scientific journals to count that explain the relationships between sicknesses and their ties to a nutrient imbalance. They go on to show in many cases a drop in ph and oxygen levels.
This all starts with what goes in the mouth. Eating is one part of good health. A mind set is a more important part of health. It will lead you to eat better and enjoy proper exercise and rest. This all takes place if the mind is fed with proper nutrition.
I do want to comment on the website you provided at a later time.
Feed your mind well.
donnie.teambuilders@gmail.com
Donnie Lynn
Malta,Mt
Polycystic Kidney Disease
tx 1/08/08. Virginia Mason. Seattle, Wa.
My wife gave me one of hers.
we are all connected |
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eric goberman
Member
Username: Ericg1950
Post Number: 232
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 11:58 pm: |
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You typed a long response but neglected to answer my questions or acknowledge the caveats to your research.
Yes, Warbburg has the Nobel prize but the Oxygen study was done in test tubes not in a body. The cells of the body would die as well as the cancer cells. That's not to say it's not a good start but i, for one, would like to wait a bit before we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
When I said, "Changing the pH of the body would require changing things starting in the digestive tract." I mean the structure, function, and processes. i also said, The pH of the stomach is between 1 and 3. That is not a result of what you eat. It's acidic in order to break the bonds in compounds that we eat. Eating will not influence the pH of the digestive tract except to the extent that the body will produce more or less acid as it needs to digest food. You are reversing the predicate and the conclusions. And it's not the pH of the stomach that counts, nor the saliva. These are resultant measurements. And eating an alkaline diet would increase the amount of acid necessry to break the foods down - wouldn't that be draining the electrolytes from the rest of the body.
The discussion started with drinking snake oil water to control the body's pH. My arguments to that were a) There is no such thing as alkaline water unless something was added to it b) In order to see any effect of applying electricity to water to perform hydrolysis requires that addition of a chemical like a metal salt (sodium, potassium, calcium) to allow the reaction to take place 3) Drinking that water (with the salts) may be some effect (beneficial or not) (sorta like drinking gator aid) and 4) Finally, that it is not the eating that controls the pH per se. Chemical imbalances, temperature, pH oddites, and a host of other bad things are a result of an illness - regardless of the cause of the illness - even if it is poor nutrition (like scurvy !)
Even people who eat well get bad things. Barring a host of exclusions (allergies, infections {like yeast infections in the intestine or scurvy which is a specific dietary deficiency), eating well, when one is ill, can only help. If one gets better, it is not the food that is making the change it is the fact the body has healed. I can get well from a basic infection with the right antibiotic - no amount of food will cure that.
Regarding the pH and eating .. my point was, assuming (in this country) some semblance of eating a variety of foods. The body will maintain itself within a basic range of pH no matter what you eat. In order to have food affect the body in the manner to which you are alluding, one would have to consume (or avoid) vast quantities over a long period time. Rather like the experiments they do. If did those tests on humans w ewould have to do things like eat pounds of something like Saccharine for a couple of years. Anything in that quantity would do bad things. One can even die by drinking too much water. Eating a varied diet will not cause a disease or change the pH.. getting sick will.
Eating well did not prevent my transplant (nor yours, it seems) but eating healthfully does provide for a better quality of life both physically as well as mentally.
Historically, there have meen more 'science breakthroughs', by credentialed and quack doctors, for diet that have proved more than specious, they are downright dangerous. Others sound great but are nothing more than ways to have us lose weight in our wallets but do no particular harm or good. Our species would do better to eat well as a rule and indulge our vices once in a while to fulfill the decadent needs of our brainstem.
In reference to my quotes about eating, I said them all but they do not contradict healthy eating. If I go to a bar-b-que and they don't a heart healthy choice, I'll eat what they have. But I don't go to bar-b-que's everyday, I don't make a pig of myself and I don't hurt the feelings of my hosts.
Others have had transplants (or other conditions) that limit what they can eat. They may not be able to undulge in certain foodstuffs but they find other indulgences and eat healthfully. As a specific example, those with Celiac Disease have more choices today than they had a mere 5 years ago.. hundreds of food products that didn't exsit for them (and they aren't bad ! Like rice based linguini. Weird, perhaps, but not bad. On the other hand, the dinner rolls suck!)
Science is not always correct.. the world was recently proved not to be flat and the earth not the center of the universe. The body is seriously complex with 10's, if not hundreds, of thousands of years to get its systems where they are today. Some nutrition is stored other must be garnered daily. All of the diet fads have proven at least one thing: most are malarky and they can't complete with common sense and doing more push offs from the table and pushups in the morning.
Ht tx 2/17/2005
Col Pres NYC |
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Jo
Member
Username: Oxygirl
Post Number: 43
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 10:31 pm: |
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Reading the two of you exchange ideas is one of the great benefits of this site. I had no idea of any of these arguments regarding pH, and I'm just thrilled to see that you both had put a lot of thought and research into your ideas. It's these kinds of posts that help keep my brain going and looking into anything that will help keep me and my new lungs(when I get them) healthy.
Oxygen is a good thing!
Emory Hospital-in eval for dbl lung tx |
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